The former Tottenham manager discusses Levy's Spurs departure, his working relationship with the ex-chairman and how new signing Xavi Simons will fit into the side.
Martin Jol says Daniel Levy did ‘a fantastic job’ during his time at Tottenham, but was let down on occasion by the people he entrusted on recruitment.
Levy stepped down as Spurs’ executive chairman on 4 September, and in our exclusive interview Jol has revealed what their working relationship was like during the Dutchman’s White Hart Lane tenure.
Spurs are currently 7/2 in the Premier League betting to finish in the top four, and Jol has also revealed what he feels it would take for his former club to claim a Champions League place, as well as how he believes new signing Xavi Simons will integrate into the side.
What was your immediate reaction to Daniel Levy leaving Spurs?
It was two-fold. The first one was disbelief, but on the other hand, I think it was six or seven weeks ago when Donna Cullen left, his right hand, his media expert. She left, and I thought there was something in the pipeline, there must be something happening there in the background. So it was not a shock, but I still thought that Daniel would stay there for the next five years. Of course, they won the Europa League but on the other hand they were 17th in the league. He probably thought they have to do better. That is Daniel, he wants to win, that is why he gets rid of a lot of managers early, because he wants to be in the Champions League. Maybe he’s right, but there’s a few contradictions there.
What was your working relationship like with Daniel Levy at Spurs, compared to the other chairmen you’ve worked with?
They’re different. I was there with Frank Arnesen, and Frank said, “you’re the chief coach and I’m the manager, the technical director.” And that structure works if you are friends and you get along well. But if you don’t, I think it’s not the best of structures. Daniel wanted this structure to be successful.
You need very good people to do well on the commercial side and of course, Daniel is probably the best, and they did well on the commercial side. With economics, it was amazing. But in the first place you have to do well on the technical side, because you need a good team, but at Spurs it’s a bit different. They built an unbelievable stadium, their facilities are top and that will be Daniel’s legacy in the future. Everything is top because this man is so stylish, even when you go and pick out a car with him, it’s always a bit different. I went to the Ferrari factory with him and he took a blue one! He’s so creative – you see that in the stadium and the training ground.
I think Daniel did fantastic, but his recruitment staff let him down sometimes. Not all the time, because in 2016 or 2017 they should have won the league. I remember talking to Daniel at the Amsterdam Arena when they were in the semi-finals of the Champions League with Christian Eriksen, Dele Alli, Harry Kane, all these players. I always thought Spurs were two or three players away from being the best in England. With Alderweireld and Vertonghen – my players, by the way, from Ajax – you had Dembele, who he stole from me with Dempsey on the last day of the transfer window. They had unbelievable players.
I think Pochettino had a dream team by that time, but it was more coincidence than great recruitment. Vertonghen came from Ajax and Alderweireld came from Southampton, and it was not £30m or £40m, it was £13m or £14m. You don’t need all the money in the world to get a top team, and Daniel and Pochettino proved that, but you have to be consistent and stay at the level, and they didn’t do that.
Was Levy hands-off when it came to footballing matters?
When I came with Frank, that was good. And then Frank left and it was even better, because I was on my own working with Daniel and we had a very good relationship, but then again, he’s obsessed with his structure. He needed a technical director, and of course you can’t take risks all the time with managers, they bring in about 10 players and then the next manager comes, so you need stability in your club.
But I think if you’ve got a very good manager, like Arsene Wenger with Arsenal, I think he was involved in all the transfers. But at Spurs that wasn’t the case, and that is difficult because if there is no technical director, or there’s a technical director who can’t get along with the coach, they’ve got a problem.
Of course Daniel was involved in the transfers because he’s got a small group of people around him who are advising him, and I think sometimes they did well, but most of the time they didn’t do well.
When Harry Redknapp came to Spurs he took Crouch, Defoe, Kaboul, Modric and Kranjcar – that was their luck, that Harry knew these players. That was coincidence, and of course they did well.
We didn’t have the resources. I watched Aaron Lennon once because somebody advised Daniel, and we took him for £1m. On the other side, Reto Ziegler came in because of Frank Arnesen. I promised Gareth Bale and his mum that he would play, so you have to put your money where your mouth is and play them, because if you don’t then they can’t develop.
So I always thought that we did well to be with all the top clubs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd. City were developing then with Mark Hughes, but we were still better than them. That is why I always say why pick on Spurs? There’s so many other clubs they don’t win prizes every year. How many finals do Spurs play? Six or seven in the last 15 or 20 years. So it’s not that bad.
What was your biggest accomplishment with Daniel Levy at Spurs?
Spurs hadn’t finished in the top seven for years. They were all talking about glory nights – they hadn’t had any glory nights. They won the League Cup in 1999 and that was the only time they were in Europe – they never got into Europe through the league.
We were in Europe twice in two seasons. That was a great accomplishment. But because Daniel wants to be in the top four, even if your name is Mourinho or Conte or Pochettino, if you don’t do that, he will get rid of you.
Maybe it was because I was from Holland, I was a bit new, and of course this Damien Comolli came in. I had a very good relationship from my side with Daniel, I’m not sure about his side because he’s not like me, he hasn’t got his heart on his sleeve, but he’s a very honest man.
The only thing is if you’ve got people around you who will do the business for you, like he did with this geezer Damien Comolli, he wanted to get rid of me already in the summer, because I’ve heard from people who work there high up in the board. We had a very good season, we were the best of the rest and played in the top four for six or seven months, but on the final day we missed out.
That is what we accomplished, and Daniel was happy but maybe he was a bit distracted because he thought we could do better, and they won the League Cup one or two months after I left.
Vinai Venkatesham will take over the commercial side from Daniel Levy, but do you think Spurs need a sporting director to lead the football side of things alongside Thomas Frank?
Nothing is as it seems in football. Nothing. So you could go for a very good football man, Man Utd did that a couple of years ago – I think they got three. You need the proper guy.
The quality of a good manager is your judgement on young players, experience, mentality, training methods, which systems are used during games and their general instinct. Can you see a player? Can this 18-year-old develop into a fantastic player? And that is what you need. That is the big controversy with Spurs, they spent over £600m over the last six years. I mean, it’s unbelievable. So there must be a contradiction there.
Maybe they don’t pay the wages, because Spurs are paying big transfers, but maybe you only get the top, top players like Eze if you pay the wages. I don’t think it’s necessary, but but if you’ve got unbelievable recruitment staff with very good people, you can create the Lennon’s and Defoe’s of this world.
You talk about accomplishments, what do you think of Michael Carrick? We took him for £2m from West Ham. I think he will not only be one of the best coaches in England in the next five years, but at that time you wouldn’t find a better No. 6 than him. So you don’t have to pay £100m to find a good player, but you need good coaches who can get the maximum out of his team.
You’ve said Daniel Levy was sometimes distant, do you think that has contributed towards Spurs going through so many managers over the past 25 years?
When things are going well, it’s good. When Daniel’s satisfied and he’s happy, he’s a different man. I remember we had a dinner in the city, big limousine, went to the Dorchester, it was nice. But I can’t see him talking to them when they need support.
With Conte, I really thought that they must get rid of him because he was so critical. You can’t do that at Spurs. I finished fifth twice and I was quite satisfied with the team, but Daniel said “you realise that you have to be in the top four?”
After we had a press conference and they said you have to be in the top four now. I said “I think with Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea, I think fifth will be good again,” and they were angry with me! So that is not what you want.
In my situation, with our resources, you needed support, and that is not what they do. They didn’t do that with the other coaches as well. Pochettino was Levy’s partner, he was on the highest wage ever at Spurs, 100 per cent, and six months after losing the Champions League Final he was sacked. His group of players was not as good anymore and he couldn’t win an away game for 11 or 12 months. So even if you’re Daniel’s partner or his best friend, he has to be in the top four. That is not what Pochettino did and they sacked him, and that was real disbelief.
Take Arne Slot for example. Slot was 100 per cent going to Spurs, I was convinced of that because I know him. And he didn’t go to Spurs, and a season later he went to Liverpool, because he had a better connection. It’s important that you’ve got people who negotiate with you, or talk to you, and then maybe you can give them a lower wage.
What did you think of Spurs signing Xavi Simons and how will he fit into the Spurs team?
Hopefully Xavi, our Dutch boy, will get his position in the team because I’ve got my doubts. If you look at Spurs now, I’m not sure where they can play him. Xavi has played on the left, but he’s not great on the left. If you want Xavi as a No. 10, OK, he’ll do well. They went for Eze on the left and the Savinho, but neither worked, and then the next day you get Xavi who is a 10? I’m not sure that is the way to do it and it feels like strange recruitment, but maybe I’m a bit harsh. Of course Xavi wanted to go to Spurs, because Spurs is an unbelievable club for Xavi.
Xavi needs confidence, he needs a manager who will put his arm around him, and he needs to play in the No. 10 position. But if James Maddison comes back, if Sarr plays as he is now, and with Bergvall who I think is a proper No. 8, box to box player, I’m not sure where Xavi will play.
If Maddison doesn’t drop off all the time then he’s an amazing 10. At Leicester you saw him in the final third all the time, and at Spurs you see him in midfield and trying to pass it. No, his style is to support your striker. That is why they don’t score goals at Spurs. On the right Johnson was there, amazing with his tap-ins, but he won’t create, and he won’t cross the ball on the right.
I think Johnson will play on the left this year, because if you look for somebody to replace Son, you don’t go for Xavi. He’s a proper No. 10. Johnson will score goals and I believe in him, but he’s not like a Lennon who can beat people 1 v 1. I would’ve taken Palmer for £40m from City. Everyone could have had him, and that is what I mean with recruitment. Van de Ven was not £4m, he was £40m, when a year and a half before that he was £3.5m and went to Wolfsburg. So that is what I mean with recruitment – you are too late. Either you buy them when they’re young, or you buy the top players when they’ve got problems in their clubs.
What did you think of Spurs’ transfer business?
Maybe it’s a strange idea but I would have taken Eriksen this year. Bergvall will be a top player, but not now, because with a new coach I’m not sure if he will be a regular. So put him on loan for one year, Eriksen can play for one year, and then take Bergvall back.
I would’ve taken De Bruyne if I was at Spurs – all these young players, and then a player who can make the difference. He’s maybe the best midfield player ever in the league. He went to Napoli and he scored a couple again, so he’s still good. But I know for a fact, Daniel wouldn’t do that. Daniel wants a return on investment, so he will buy a player who can be more. De Bruyne won’t be more, but he will deliver straight away.
One player I love, and who I think was good recruitment, is Djed Spence. I like the guy. He can play on the left or the right, he’s good on the ball, he’s quick. Now they’ve realised that they’ve got a very good, talented young players on their hands, and now he’s in the England team. If Spence is playing, you don’t need Porro, who was £40m by the way
I saw Mikey Moore in training and thought, “what a player”. But they wanted another player on the left because they thought we need a finished article. And then they buy Xavi, and Xavi is not the finished article on the left. Mikey Moore will be amazing, but now he’s at Rangers. Hopefully he will do well and come back, because that is the potential Spurs have. They have unbelievable potential, but need two or three players who can make a difference and then Spurs will be in the top four.
How talented is Jorrel Hato and can he earn a spot in the starting line-up at Chelsea?
I wouldn’t have done it if I was him, but Levi Colwill is injured now so hopefully they play him. I know Maresca, he’s a terrific coach. I advised Ajax to take him but they were stubborn, they didn’t take him. So I think Hato’s in good hands. Don’t forget he was an international when he was 17. He’s maybe the biggest talent in Holland over the last five years. De Ligt was an unbelievable talent, but he should be further down the line already, he should be a top, top player.
I think Hato will do well. That is the main thing – when I had a young player, I played him. You could say “that’s a good quality, Martin” but I had to play him because sometimes I didn’t have another player!
Then you have to give him confidence. It’s easy to get on with the Berbatov’s and King’s of this world, but you have to get on with the young players and give them the support and the backing.
Sunderland made a big money move for Brian Brobbey – what do you think of him as a player?
Probably the best buy of the summer. Sunderland have done well.
You have to buy them when they’re bad – that’s what I’ve learned. You have to buy good players when they’re £20m. Otherwise, , would’ve been £50m or £60m.
Don’t get me wrong, Brobbey scored four league goals, he didn’t play all the games. He was allegedly blackmailed, there was something going on in Amsterdam, so it was not easy for him.
Look at his goal record. He’s young, he still scored 50 goals in 140 matches. He won’t score one in two because that’s only for the Keane’s, the Berbatov’s, Suarez’, Isak’s, Kane’s and the Haaland’s of this world. But you’re still a good striker if you score one in three.
He was very young when he went to Leipzig, and then his agent Mino Raiola was very happy to sell him back. He went on a free transfer and then Ajax bought him back for £16m. And now they’ve still got £20m. He’s happy, Ajax is happy, but I think there’s a lot of quality in this guy and he’s a good boy. He’s not arrogant and he wants to learn.
It won’t be easy for him to get in as regularly, but give him a bit of time. He’s strong as a horse, he’s not great in the air but he’s an unbelievable anchor man. You can give him the ball and he can hold it up. I think he’ll do well.
